Politically Speaking: The complexities of democracy
Politically Speaking: Final Episode
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Richard Lovette
Welcome to Politically Speaking, an ETSU podcast about freedom and citizenship. Hosted by Dr. Daryl Carter, a professor and scholar of political history.
Each week, we dive into the essential topics of personal freedom and engaged citizenship, exploring what it means to be an active and responsible citizen in today's world.
Join us as we talk politics with members of the ETSU community, asking important questions and seeking meaningful answers.
Dr. Carter
Hello everyone!
This is "Politically Speaking." We're here today with the opinion page editor of The Tennessean, David Plazas.
Thank you, David, for joining us.
Plazas
Thank you so much.
Carter
I appreciate your time.
Could you before we get started, I think our listeners would like to know where are you from?
Are you from Nashville?
Plazas
I'm not.
I've lived in Nashville for the last ten years, but I'm originally from Chicago, Illinois.
Went to school at Northwestern and then lived in Fort Myers, Florida, for 14 years, and then has a chance to be recruited to Nashville back in 2014, actually right after the gubernatorial election in that year.
And, I initially led our opinion and efforts at The Tennessean and currently leading efforts of the entire USA Today Network, Tennessee, which includes the Knoxville News Sentinel and the Memphis Commercial Appeal.
Carter
Oh, wonderful.
And for our listeners, a lot of them, have heard of The Tennessean.
What is your readership?
Plazas
So, their print readership is currently probably about a 27,000, circulation, which sounds low compared to the past years.
But the reality is the majority of our readers are online, and, we have about 3.5 million unique visitors every single month.
So we have the most massive audience we've ever had in our history.
And, really about an average of 6 million pages every single month.
And so we're the largest media organization in the state of Tennessee.
And, and the most, with the most reach.
Carter
That is wonderful.
And, you know, this is an exciting time for, media.
It's exciting time for academics.
As a keen observer of politics and society, to your mind, what has changed the most about how Americans relate to one another?
Plazas
Or is in the context of the campaign that I helped start back in 2010 called Civility Tennessee.
There is a, terrible, problem with polarization.
It's not the first time that we've been polarized as a nation, but we've had a lot of, issues that have gotten in the way.
For example, the use of social media and other sites that have created these echo chambers where people are only listening to themselves and dehumanizing the other others who might have a different opinion, has contributed to this very acute the problem of disinformation and misinformation and also misunderstandings, where people feel, they need to defend their position versus trying to find some level of understanding, to do some work on virtual settings.
A lot of my work is in person, going to different communities across the state.
I was at ETSU a few years ago to speak at, Civility Week event, and, trying to find areas of common ground or at least a common understanding, when it comes to a variety of issues, be it political or social and oftentimes food and family tradition, you there are ways to start a great conversation.
Carter
Well, you mentioned social media and, there's a lot of discussion about its pros and cons.
It sounds to me like it's it's a deeply nuanced issue, in terms of American politics, in which people as you said, can find their own, biased groups.
Is it a net positive or, and a negative?
Plazas
You know, I think in some ways it's, I see both sides.
I don't mean to equivocate or give a wishy-washy answer, but I see a lot of the benefits when it comes to people connecting with each other.
You know, for example, connecting with people from high school or college, for those of us who are of a certain age, and finding community in different ways.
But when it comes to discussing political, issues, it often becomes a place where people decide to use a ball peen hammer to hit the other person on the head.
And so those conversations tend not to be productive, because they tend to be about expressing an opinion versus trying to have a conversation.
And so despite being called social media, the reality is it's more the amplification of one's own views and one's own own experiences over the community as a whole.
Carter
I agree with you.
And the use of social media, does have some positive benefits.
I use it and most people I know do use it as well.
But I think you're right on, on this point of, you know, the algorithms that that amplify the most extreme views, the most, controversial the ones that are going to rile people up is deeply, deeply problematic.
Extremism to that extent is on the rise in the United States.
How have you seen that played out in the state of Tennessee?
Plazas
It's politics.
It's citizens between Mountain City and Memphis and everywhere in between.
I think recently we've seen an influx of, new, critics.
And people consider themselves white supremacists or white nationalist being very open about their views and being very open about, exposing, racism very publicly, and anti-immigrant sentiment in places like naturally recently, a group recently marched on the state Capitol and went to the city hall, I believe or when what if history is that the Ku Klux Klan was founded in Tennessee.
And so that's a dark part of the history.
It's something that we have to face up to.
But the the general consensus among people that I talk to in leadership positions is that we need to reject racism.
We need to reject these, this extremism.
Yet we've seen it grow.
And, you know, from what I've read, it is for a variety of reasons in terms of research, you know, some of it has to do with people feeling isolated and feeling unheard, and some of it is a fear of the growth of, racial and ethnic, underrepresented groups, who have taken positions of more prominent positions of power, and, people feel threatened that somehow there there's going to be some kind of career replacement, which has led to violence, unfortunately, whether it's in Buffalo to, or El Paso or New York, and in Nashville, it's, rather horrifying.
The good news is that, the City council, really has been adamant about, rejecting hatred and directing extremism and creating a space where people feel welcome, and, also while trying to balance that with freedom of speech because, those are sometimes very difficult, aims to balance, when you want to have respect, but at the same time want to allow people to have their say.
Carter
Well, I think the freedom of speech, is absolutely vital.
We talk about it here on the campus of East Tennessee State and across the nation.
But not all speech is equal.
And sometimes you have individuals who are engaging in speech that's designed to incite, which are deeply problematic, especially when they're extremists, whether they're left wing, right wing, or somewhere else.
It's deeply, deeply problematic.
But it leads me to wonder ... and I'm curious what your thoughts are on this, which is, you know, having these people in the public square, spewing, hate and vile sentiment.
Is that a is it better to have them in that public square doing it that way, or doing it more privately where you don't see it out and in public?
This is the tough thing of being in a democratic republic, is that sometimes you encounter speech that you dislike or that you consider important.
Plazas
And, you know, when I look at the history of speech in this country, you know, whether it's people who are advocating against, you know, going to war or against serving in the military, or this people talking about LGBTQ rights or even, you know, decades ago just to allow, African-Americans the right to vote without a poll tax or, you know, literacy tests or those things, those were considered by the authorities to be anathema to, you know, public order and good.
And yet the reality is that it's complex.
You know, Governor Bill Lee has, and the former governor of Tennessee, once said during an event that I helped moderate, back in Nashville, we were talking about higher education aims and, a group of Black Lives Matter protesters, students came and disrupted the event toward the end.
And, we ended the event early.
And one of the things he said was democracy is messy.
And it's a reminder that there are not easy answers to this.
You know, these are complex problems that require complex solutions.
And we would like people to be in spaces where they can feel respected.
But, you know, I'll give you another example.
There's, an annual pride festival, for LGBTQ rights that happens in Nashville every year.
And in front of the, the park where it's held, you'll have, people who identify themselves as ministers, essentially insulting and, talking about, you know, the biblical consequences of people who are LGBTQ rights or LGBTQ, community.
And, you know, some people would like to say, can't we just get rid of them?
Can't we just, you know, the insightful and the question is, at the same time, we get to hear what they have to say, but then people are not afraid either to be who they are and declare the spaces and say, we're not going to be afraid of that.
So this is the constant conflict that we have in this country.
The free speech comes with a lot of consequences, but also opportunities to express oneself and push the envelope.
Carter
Well, when I'm talking to my own students and, you know, these questions come up around freedom of speech and they'll say, well, you know, this person was canceled, or this person was, you know, excluded because they made a remark and somebody didn't like.
And then I always say, you know, we rather have that marketplace of ideas of people out there talking about whatever they, they want to talk about.
But there's also a little thing called accountability.
And so you can see why maybe an employer would not like somebody to represent them who is, this exhibited, you know, hateful speech towards one group or or many.
How is that worked?
As you can as far as you can tell in Tennessee, where, employers, leadership, etc., have dealt with this issue of, extremism and, and speech?
Plazas
You know, I joke to a group a few years ago in McMinnville, Tennessee, I was speaking to a Rotary Club group, and they were talking about, you know, cancel culture and canceling.
And what I told them was, you know, as someone who has survived numerous cancellation attempts, you know, from left and right, I can tell you that it's not fun.
You know, people basically saying that if you have said something they don't like, you know, delete your account, or if you are, if you espouse an idea that doesn't fit their worldview of you, that you're somehow, you know, just not right in the head, essentially.
And the fact is that this is something where we have to be mindful every day.
I talk about everyday citizenship, and everyday citizenship is not just about going to vote.
You know, once every four years.
It really is about being participating in your community, you know, at the neighborhood level.
I found that when I participate in neighborhood cleanups, when I go to school board meetings, when I go to community events at local places, like local churches where many of them are held, people see me as a human being, and suddenly they may have a different view from me, but they can at least feel like I can.
They can speak to me about, you know, on September 25th, I spoke to a group, for the Beacon Center, which is a more conservative organization in town.
But I've also moderated events with union organizers.
You know, with regard to Amazon coming to Tennessee.
And I think especially as a journalist and people and in positions like mine, we have to be willing to enter spaces that sometimes make us uncomfortable, but allow us to model, behaviors that promote civil discourse and that show that we can be, respectful.
But at the same time, we can hold people accountable.
To your point, I, you know, my first night when I think about civility, it's not just about being a doormat or being nice or being courteous.
I mean, sometimes you have to call things out, you know, bad behaviors about behavior.
I don't have to call someone evil or the devil, but I can say this person's behavior, this person's actions were absolutely harmful.
And whether it's addressing a former Nashville mayor or whether it's addressing, the former speaker of the House of Tennessee, state of the Tennessee Representatives, I think, it's up to us to say we have to take a stand.
And sometimes people will want to tune us out.
So don't you lose followers from it, you know, on social media for people who still care about that?
But I think at the end of the day, people will respect those who, you know, speak from the heart and also are respectful to others that I, I think one thing we can do is reject and condemn racism and extremism.
And I recently wrote a column when the neo-Nazis came to Nashville City Hall.
The president pro tem of City Hall is a council member who is, she's Muslim.
She is an immigrant from Nigeria.
And I celebrated her for being fearless and someone who has shown that she welcomes diverse voices but rejects hatred and extremism that denigrates people, that denigrates people's basic humanity.
And I think that in a democratic society, all of us have a right to be seen as equal citizens and have a right to condemn that which tries to make us less than.
Carter
Well, I agree with you.
And I think that, being seen and being heard is, is important.
And here at the university, you know, we don't teach, students how, you know, what they should think about any particular issue.
But we do teach them how to think and how to use evidence and data and critical thinking skills.
And we also teach them about people coming first, and that you may not agree with them, but they, deserve a floor of respect, and dignity as they, move forward.
So I appreciate that.
And, you know, in your role, you have such a public facing role.
And you talked about counseling, and things of that nature, but I'd like you to talk just for a moment about some of the dangers that American journalists like yourself are encountering in this hyperpartisan, atmosphere in which journalists are being threatened every day.
I was, serving as an analyst up here in northeastern SC, for a Trump event that was held here in 2018.
And I was embedded with the national media for that.
And it was remarkable, the venom that was spewed towards all of us on that platform.
How have you dealt with that?
What are your thoughts on that?
Plazas
Yes.
You know, the in our history, many presidents and, officials have always had contentious, relationships with the press, oftentimes, you know, decrying press that was not positive and so forth.
But we're in a different point now where people are, are threatening members of the press, where you have a former sitting president calling the press the enemy of the people, where you have, t shirts that, talk about hanging reporters.
And that's incredibly dangerous.
I mean, people might see that as a joke.
But it's not a joke, especially at a time where we've seen, people get killed.
And, and obviously, this is not the first time in history when this happened.
We look back at, you know, the civil rights era, whether it's others, or even, Freedom Riders who risked their lives, you know, and they knew they were going to dangerous situations for reporters.
We have historically, tried to these flies in the world, but that really isn't possible anymore, because you do have a group of people that believe that we're out to, get them or looking down on them.
And one of the antidotes to that has been, for me at least, to go and be present in
different community conversations, to be mindful of my surroundings, but at the same
time to develop relationships with, local universities, with, local civic groups,
just to show that, in fact, you know, we are responsible members of our community.
We live in our community.
We, those who worship, worship in their communities with with others, we go to the grocery stores together.
And so showing that humanity, I think is really important because, I remember when I went to McMinnville for the first time to a Rotary Club, there was, this was the sort of our Civility Tennessee campaign.
And after I finished speaking about it at a gentleman who raised his hand and said to me, you know, why should we trust you?
And I have those words in my office because that was a great question.
We need to be able to answer that every single day, because there was the belief that somehow the media was in the tank for a particular candidate, and that, they're trying to, they're trying to, influence elections and the realities ...
And I had to be a journalist regardless of who's president.
And despite what I just said about President Trump and his tweets, you know, that era, the Trump era was some of the best years of journalism innovation when it came to judgment.
And because we had to because it was, trying to tell people that you've got to separate yourself from the doomscrolling and from the obsession with, with that, that, you know, one national politician is going to affect every aspect of your life.
And you yourself are a citizen, a liberated, free citizen who can make decisions that affect your community.
And we've got to pick that up.
Carter
Our, well, I understand and, that brings me to another point, which is, you know, you you're working for the most prestigious news organization in the state, but an increasing number of Americans and, and Tennesseans are finding themselves in so-called news deserts, and sometimes they're even consuming content, from organizations claiming to have a journalistic bent, but are really paid political operatives by various faceless entities.
How can Americans become more skilled and thoughtful and finding credible and reputable sources of news and information?
Plazas
Yeah, no, it's a wonderful question, and it's something I'm very passionate about.
I'm on the board of the Tennessee Press Association.
They're representing newspapers, in all three grand divisions of the state.
And we struggle with that every single day.
You know, part of it is, especially with our our news deserts to try our best as we can, you know, given limited resources to go in and cover stories as we know them.
And one of the good things has been that there have been some entrants that have been very positive in terms of, online and digital news organizations that do tell stories about the local community, about the, high school football, about the city council.
We need more of that.
And unfortunately, the business model, was disrupted over the last 20 years due to a variety of factors from, you know, how the advertising model did not adapt to the social media environment and the internet environment, or how people, you know, there's still, you know, people want information more than ever.
I'd like to make the parallel between journalism and music, despite the fact that CD's are, you know, barely sold, you know, people still want their music.
They're just getting it through streaming.
Typically.
And the same thing, you know, online digital journalism is the primary way that people get their news.
The problem is, just like in the music industry, people have not been willing to pay for it.
And part of it was, you know, our own fault as an industry for not asking people to pay for it, thinking that somehow the business model would stay the same as it had been.
But, you know, the people's daily newspapers when we had the most was back in 1990.
I mean, that is, you know, almost 35 years ago.
And we have to change and we also have to be willing to tell people, hey, you know, we journalists are doing a particular job.
This is how we do it.
We have to talk about how we make these decisions, the news, decisions.
So, for example, we now have in our Sunday edition a what we call a transparency page, where we introduce members of our staff and explain the decisions we make on a variety of issues.
And that's really important because that's part of the whole news literacy equation.
You know, people today aren't necessarily, taught to read a newspaper.
The fact is that most young people don't ever pick up a newspaper.
But there are many people who are interested in what's happening in the world.
They may not know how to start.
And that's why we have to make, a very concerted effort as journalists working with, with academics, working with librarians and with others to say, this is how you understand these are the questions you should have, and it's okay to push to, to journal, to say, I'm learning more about this, or why did you say this or that?
Because I want clarity on it.
And so we have a responsibility to do better.
Carter
Well, it seems to me that, you know, part of the problem is that, you know, broadcast media has such a huge role in the country.
That you have national journalists or national, opinion, makers and pundits who are masquerading as journalists And they're really giving opinion, not news.
What are your thoughts on that?
Plazas
I often tell you, I mean, I'm thankful to you for being on my Committee Voices video podcast a few weeks ago.
And I mentioned that it's because when I started that show back in March of 2020, I did not want to be a pundit, even though I'm an opinion journalist.
I wanted to be more the person who helps draw out people's stories about their purpose, their work, their passions, their life, and so forth.
Because I think that that's much more interesting than anything spouting off something that I may not know too much about.
You know, as an opinion journalist, obviously when I do opine, it's because I don't know the research beforehand about a particular topic.
And, it does, create this impression that all journalists are a certain way, you know, we're dealing with the situation now, that is being talked about in official social media circles of a reporter in New York who had, personal relationship with a former presidential candidate.
And, you know, and, you know, the, the appropriateness or inappropriateness of that.
And, but it just takes that one example to make it seem like everybody is doing that, that everybody engages in that kind of unethical behavior.
And the reality is that most journalists that I know really take their ethics and take their job very, very seriously, and we just need to be more present and talk about these things more in a way that's productive.
You know, not not trying to just, you know, look at me, look at me, but rather, you know, explain what we do because I think, what we've seen some networks come out as well, and some, news outlets come out that really just want to talk about what is happening, you know, their news oriented.
And when my staff and I, when we do opinion work, we really do base it on on getting the facts right first and then helping guide conversations on a variety of issues.
And I think that that's much more valuable than just me spouting off something just because it came into my head.
Carter
Well, that's a that's a great way to go about it.
And one of the things is in my work as a political historian, and when I look at media is what I'll call the Watergate effect, right?
Which is, you have a few prominent journalists who become very, very well known, for their work on that particular issue, President Nixon and his downfall, which helps to inspire others.
But it also has this effect as well, of, putting certain journalists in a position of presuming there's scandal when there may not be any, at the expense of other news that may be more important, such as policy maintenance or, issues that are taking place in the House or the Senate or in the state houses.
Are journalists to blame for that, are journalism schools to blame for, for that?
Are they to blame for the fact that so many, are predisposed at this position to go towards sports, journalism?
How?
Well, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around, you know, some of these critical issues.
What are your thoughts?
Plazas
Yeah, it's really interesting because, I went to journalism school.
I was a pre law student initially, and then, rather than go to law school to get a master's in journalism, and, the education was, was high quality.
We learned about the newsgathering process and, and there were specialty areas such as reporting of law reporting and sports, the arts and so forth.
And that was a choice of any individual student to go that direction.
My experience in my school was that there was an emphasis on, you know, getting the facts right.
Really being focused on, telling stories that were compelling, that made a difference, that, that were about people, you know, people tend to be open to persuasion or at least open to empathy when they see other people who they can relate to in some way.
And it doesn't have to be the same background.
It can be someone that they never knew, but suddenly they learn something new.
And that's one of the things that I always get excited about - is it's journalism is a daily discovery process which keeps me motivated every single day.
You know, obviously the media, is a huge term.
And people say the media often, which media?
You know, which organization, because we all have different standards.
You know, I work for the Gannett, the USA Today Network, and we have a very high level of ethical standards.
Not every organization does.
There are a lot of startups or a lot of organizations that, you know, value celebrity over newsgathering.
But, but thankfully, I think there are a lot of examples of those who, who do really care about the process.
And one of the issues that we've had to contend with, and I'm actually dealing with it right now, is how to reach audiences that normally don't come to more traditional platform.
Like an Instagram or TikTok.
And I've had a couple of reels that I've done, and some of them have, reached quite a large audience tonight, larger than I expected.
And I'm like, you know, it's hard to do because it's like, it's a lot of extra work in addition to what I'm doing.
But I know it's important.
And, and it's also meaning it means you had to cut through a lot of noise because one of the issues that we have with Americans is an attention span deficit.
And, you know, the average attention span of an American on news stories, according to a group called Chart B, which tracks analytics, is about 15 seconds - 15 seconds - for a news story.
And, a lot of it is people who scan headlines and maybe they'll read the first or second, graph.
But we have to be willing to adapt and have used and compelling.
You have to give people a reason to keep reading, you know.
And we're not trying to just use tricks, but really have compelling writing that brings them down and also have compelling elements such as visuals and videos.
That will be another way to tell a story that the reality is that, you know, 80% of people tend to get their news from some kind of video platform, be it YouTube or, or TikTok or otherwise.
And we have to be present and we have to be there.
And we're still in this period of adapting to that, because it goes against a lot of the traditional ways that we did journalism.
And yet, you know, we have been constantly disrupted, and now we have artificial intelligence, which is another disruptor as well.
You know, how do we, what will that do to our industry in the next few years?
You know, there's a lot of questions about that.
I'm, actually getting involved with a couple of initiatives to learn about the uses for AI that are ethical and that are good to think and then advance journalism and would allow us to survive.
But there are a lot of questions still up in the air.
What, as we wrap up here, I just curious as to what are you most excited about in terms of, journalism today?
I think deep down the most important element is this from when I started 25 years ago is telling a good story.
And that, to me is something that makes me excited every single day.
The discovery of new narratives, being able to present it in new ways.
So 25 years ago, I was a print reporter.
I wrote, primarily for a print outlet that came out today.
I am a video podcast host.
I write two newsletters that reach, you know, different, distinct audiences.
And then also, hosting a storytellers, event.
So we have, two initiatives called Black Community, which is Storytellers and Latino Voices Storytellers.
And we have invited people to the community to tell their stories, because the thing that we discovered a few years ago with regard to our trust among underrepresented communities is that there was not that trust.
And so we created this challenge for ourselves, which is what if we went from telling stories about communities of color, telling stories for, with, and by communities of color, and there's been transformative and it's, you know, garnered us several, international and national accolades.
And, but we continue to do this work because it's incredibly important to, the novelty, the constant discovery and the fact that I'm not doing the same thing I was doing 25 years ago.
It's been a constantly evolving job.
But at the heart of it is about storytelling, and it is about connecting with members of the community, which gets me excited every single day.
Carter
Well, thank you so much.
And for our audience as we begin to wrap up here, just encourage you to make use of the tendency and make use of of responsible and reputable news organizations and to engage in the public square.
All these things have an impact on you.
And, for our 14,000 students, you're funded by the state and you're funded by Pell Grants, student loans.
There's compelling reasons for you to engage, your fellow citizens, your fellow students, not just here in Tennessee, but beyond.
And that the media, is, has issues just like anybody else, but they aren't doing their level best to present information that is important and relevant.
And you would be well-served to, engage that process going forward and to engage journalists and journalists in this country should be protected, not just under First Amendment, but from the harassment.
That is all too often the case, whether it's here in Tennessee or, in Washington or somewhere else.
So, David, thank you for speaking politically.
And, we wish you a great day.
Plazas
Thank you, Dr. Carter.
Dr. Carter
Thank you for joining us on this episode of "Politically Speaking" an ETSU podcast about freedom and citizenship. We hope you enjoyed our discussion and found it thought provoking.
Before we wrap up, we want to remind you about ETSU Votes, an initiative led by the office of Leadership and Civic Engagement at ETSU. ETSU Votes is dedicated to fostering active citizenship by providing resources and support for voter registration, engagement and education.
Last year, ETSU was honored by Tennessee Secretary of State Tre Hargett for our outstanding efforts to promote voter registration. Remember, your voice matters, and participating in the electoral process is a powerful way to make it heard.
To learn more about ETSU Votes and how you can get involved, visit etsu.edu/votes. Thank you for listening.
Be sure to tune in to our next episode as we continue to explore the crucial concepts and topics of personal freedom and engage citizenship. Until then, stay informed, stay engaged, and keep speaking politically.
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